Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 40

Thread: Confused newbie seeking advice

  1. #1

    Default Confused newbie seeking advice

    Hi

    I've just joined the forum as we begin looking for new Cavaliers for the first time in over 15 years - sorry for the length of the post but I'm feeling very confused at the moment by the wealth of information I've read in the last few weeks.

    We've had Cavaliers as pets for the last 28 years ('twin' black & tan boys who lived to 13/14) and then 2 tri boys - we lost the first at age 10 but only lost our last one earlier this year at age 15yrs+ despite a heart murmur.

    Over the last few weeks, we've decided that we're ready to bring dogs back into our home so are embarking on a search for two boys to join us. Whilst I know all the health checks in the world on the parents don't guarantee that the puppies will be healthy I do want to be responsible about where our new family comes from and give them and us the best chance of a long, healthy and happy life together.

    I know that if I go and see some puppies I'm going to find it very difficult to walk away without one so I'm trying to do some sensible checks ahead of losing my heart to a little one but I'm feeling overwhelmed by the amount of health information and the varying reactions of people when asked about health checks on the parents.

    I've been told I was stupid to even ask about health testing on parents when I only wanted a dog as a pet; her dogs were healthy and she wouldn't be stupid enough to breed from them if the puppies weren't going to be healthy.

    I've read on a Cavalier Health site not to even consider puppies where the parents hadn't been scanned and passed clear for SM/CM, DNA tested for DE/EFS/CC, been eye tested and heart tested clear within 6 months of the date of mating, if either parent was under 5 years old then to get heart certificates for all the grandparents showing that they were clear at age 5, both parents tested for hip dysplasia, patellar luxation, diabetes and hypothroidism plus a hearing check.

    Elsewhere I've found that some people used to MRI scan but don't any longer and/or that using young dogs (under 30 months) produces healthier litters than using dogs older than that.

    Then there's the wide variation in prices for puppies - so far I've seen them in the range 300 - 900. I would expect to pay more for a puppy where parents and puppies have been tested but there again seems to be a wide price difference (600 - 900) and I don't know what to expect to pay for a non-show/breeding dog (we're hoping for black and tan and tri boys).

    I've looked on the Puppy Register for the Kennel Club (but also seen the warnings about what being a KC accredited breeder actually require).
    I've contacted the Cavalier Society and some regional societies regarding their Puppy Registers.
    I've talked to our local vet (who says that they rarely see cavalier puppies these days)

    and there don't seem to be many puppies available from those sources.

    I've seen loads of puppies advertised on sites like Pets4Homes, Dogs & Puppies but a little bit of digging into what looked like an ideal pair of puppies showed that they probably were on a puppy farm as the 'breeder' also had for sale pomeranians, westies, jack russells and some kind of poodle crosses.

    I don't understand why some breeders say that their puppies are from KC registered dogs but that the puppies won't be registered but others say that the puppies will be registered but with their papers endorsed - both giving as their reason that the breeder wants the puppies to go to family homes.

    Then there's puppy contracts, returnable deposits, non-returnable deposits ........

    I want to have sensible expectations but at the moment just don't know what 'sensible' is!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Llandrindod Wells
    Posts
    989

    Default

    In an ideal world yes you would want all the tests specified on the " Cavalier Health site" however we don't live in an ideal world. DNA testing yes one parent should be proven to be clear at least then no affected can be produced. Hearts "within 6 months of the date of mating" yes but don't rule out older stud dogs with a low grade murmur, which we are advised to use. Grandparents etc can be checked by looking at the over 5's heart clear list, if not on there ask. Testing for hip dysplasia, patellar luxation, diabetes and hypothroidism is very rare, I ceased hip scoring when I realsied no one else was so I actually couldn't make an informed breeding decision and like MRI scanning it requires sedation or a GA and if I'm going to put my dog throught that I'd rather MRI scan. Hearing check's can be done, if some asks for it in a puppy then they pay the additional cost.

    Elsewhere I've found that some people used to MRI scan but don't any longer - True or scan outside the BVA/KC scheme. MRI scanning is a can of worms some use the BVA/KC scheme but as a breeder it only tells you if the dog actually has SM, if you have a kennel that rarely has SM its not much use a breeding tool I'd rather scan my dogs later and outside the scheme where I get told about VD & PSOM.

    That using young dogs (under 30 months) produces healthier litters than using dogs older than that. Don't think that's proven and may be used as an excuse. Breeding protocols state not before 2.5 yrs. I take the attitude that if "proving" a young male both parents should have a combined age in excess of 6 yrs.

    Then there's the wide variation in prices for puppies - so far I've seen them in the range 300 - 900. I would expect to pay more for a puppy where parents and puppies have been tested but there again seems to be a wide price difference (600 - 900) and I don't know what to expect to pay for a non-show/breeding dog (we're hoping for black and tan and tri boys). - I price my pups according to my expenses, small litters and you are in the red. NO breeder breeding responsibly can produce puppies at the lower range you quote.

    KC ABS - only requires an eye test within the last 18 months on both parents and some have been inspected - there don't seem to be many puppies available from those sources. No there aren't added to which they probably have a waiting list.


    I don't understand why some breeders say that their puppies are from KC registered dogs but that the puppies won't be registered - Because their are limits on how often a bitch can be bred so to get round this you don't register one litter and then register the next, avoid at all costs. Most breeders endorsed KC documents its called being responsible they also have sale contracts listing under which circumstances they would be prepared to remove them. if as you say you are looking for a pet this should cause you no concern.

    Then there's puppy contracts, returnable deposits, non-returnable deposits ........

    Contracts - depends on the terms. I don't take deposits it's a legally binding contract and up until the puppy leaves me I have the right to say no. Age at which they leave another can of worms I like mine to go fully vaccinated so after 12 weeks. As an KCABS they must be microchipped before they leave the breeder. the pup should have been litter screened and I like mine to see a cardiologist. Again all KCABS must have puppies vet checked before they leave. Hope this helps I'm sure others will think differently and add to this thread
    Last edited by bridgette; 09-04-2014 at 08:40 AM. Reason: spelling
    Bridgette Evans
    Svena CKCS

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Avalon View Post
    ... I've read on a Cavalier Health site not to even consider puppies where the parents hadn't been scanned and passed clear for SM/CM, DNA tested for DE/EFS/CC, been eye tested and heart tested clear within 6 months of the date of mating, if either parent was under 5 years old then to get heart certificates for all the grandparents showing that they were clear at age 5, both parents tested for hip dysplasia, patellar luxation, diabetes and hypothroidism plus a hearing check. ...
    You probably are referring to this list: http://www.cavalierhealth.org/questions_for_breeder.htm

    Note that the list does not call for both parents to be scanned and passed clear for CM/SM. It only recommends that the parents pass the SM Breeding Protocol, which only calls for one of the parents to have been scanned for SM. X-rays for hip dysplasia and testing for luxating patellas and a deafness check should be performed for any cavaliers to be bred. In the USA, as many as 25% of cavaliers have hip dysplasia. Patella checks are a snap to perform during an annual exam. Since progressive deafness is hereditary in the breed, it is only logical to test breeding pairs for hearing problems. Blood tests can detect hereditary diabetes and hypothyroidism, which are known to be genetic in the CKCS, so why wouldn't conscientious breeders check for them?

    Considering how painless and simple most of these tests are (excluding MRIs for SM, of course), I have to wonder if not doing them on breeding stock is because they just don't want to know the results.
    Last edited by RodRussell; 09-04-2014 at 12:55 PM.
    Rod Russell

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Llandrindod Wells
    Posts
    989

    Default

    Why would you blood test for a genetic condition you have never had ? if I had had one affected dog I'd have tested the lot. The vast majority of defects on your site I've never even heard of and certainly never known cavaliers with them. The same was said about MRI scanning ie how do you know if you don't scan. Well I have, and now I know. So will I in future be testing for problems I've never had. No. I've hip scored several generations. patella checked other's and BAER hearing tested others. Happy to do these tests for puppy purchasers, so long as they are prepared to pay for them, otherwise they get the tests results I do do and copies of the parents results and that way I can keep my puppies competitively priced with the market.
    Bridgette Evans
    Svena CKCS

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Llandrindod Wells
    Posts
    989

    Default

    In fact I don't know of a single breeder anywhere in the world that does ALL the tests you state need doing. Do you ? Last sentence Rod SENSIBLE EXPECTATIONS.
    Bridgette Evans
    Svena CKCS

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bridgette View Post
    Why would you blood test for a genetic condition you have never had ?
    How do you know your dogs don't have them? Do you rely solely upon apparent symptoms? I don't make these disorders up. They are listed because veterinary researchers have found them problematical enough in the breed to publish journal articles about them.
    Rod Russell

  7. #7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bridgette View Post
    In fact I don't know of a single breeder anywhere in the world that does ALL the tests you state need doing. Do you ? Last sentence Rod SENSIBLE EXPECTATIONS.
    Last sentence: Do what ought to be done, not just what others do or don't do.
    Rod Russell

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Llandrindod Wells
    Posts
    989

    Default

    Never had a single dog I've bred that shows symptoms, the % of affected dogs in the latest survey doesn't IMO warrant,where do you draw the line. I take it from that you can't name a single breeder that does ALL the tests you require ?
    Do every single test in the book relevant or not and make your puppies so expensive that no one can afford them. Great sales pitch Rod
    Last edited by bridgette; 09-04-2014 at 04:08 PM.
    Bridgette Evans
    Svena CKCS

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bridgette View Post
    Never had a single dog I've bred that shows symptoms, the % of affected dogs in the latest survey doesn't IMO warrant,where do you draw the line. I take it from that you can't name a single breeder that does ALL the tests you require ?
    Do every single test in the book relevant or not and make your puppies so expensive that no one can afford them. Great sales pitch Rod
    This is not "every single test in the book". But, the only tests you seem to be objecting to are blood samples for diabetes and hypothyroidism, which are the two least expensive -- other than patella manipulation -- and easiest to perform. I am not going to name breeders here. As for sales pitches, the breed does not need more of that hype. Since AKC recognition and the consequent spiral down the bowl of lack of any heart protocol testing, the breed has suffered much too much in the USA to keep encouraging irresponsible breedings.
    Last edited by RodRussell; 09-04-2014 at 04:16 PM.
    Rod Russell

  10. #10

    Default

    Poor puppy buyers...setting them an impossible goal so they get frustrated and give up....puppy farmers will love that.

    I'm surprised that ....hundreds of "pretty good matings" rather than a tiny handful of "perfect" matings wouldn't make MORE sense for those who are keen to keep a diverse gene pool.

    Lets all exclude as many dogs from the gene pool as we can..... is that the idea?
    Last edited by Mary Cunningham; 09-04-2014 at 06:13 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •