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Thread: Confused newbie seeking advice

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Llandrindod Wells
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    I'm a diabetic I understand that condition, hypothroidism is a disease of middle age, so what are you suggesting you blood test symptom free adults or puppies? Are you saying that a test on a puppy will predict it's status later in life? Both of these conditions have very distinct symptoms and can not be "missed". I had this "discussion" over CM/SM, so I scanned and after spending thousands of £'s it told me what ? What I already knew. That rarely do I have a dog with it and in those cases it's so mild as to not be symptomatic. Concentrate on the basics, hearts. I really wonder sometimes what planet you live on ?
    Bridgette Evans
    Svena CKCS

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Cunningham View Post
    ... Lets all exclude as many dogs from the gene pool as we can..... is that the idea?
    Mary, if the question is directed to me, that is not my idea. Is it your idea to not test but instead to breed cavaliers affected with heritable disorders which you could find out about by testing? Which disorders do you find are okay to not want to know about before you breed? Progressive deafness? Diabetes mellitus? Hip dysplasia? Luxating patellas? Hypothyroidism? I assume you are okay with testing and following breeding protocols for the biggies: MVD, CM/SM, eye disorders.
    Rod Russell

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by bridgette View Post
    I'm a diabetic I understand that condition, hypothroidism is a disease of middle age, so what are you suggesting you blood test symptom free adults or puppies?
    The Canine Inherited Disorders Database recommends that no dog suffering from autoimmune thyroiditis or hypothyroidism should be bred.

    Quote Originally Posted by bridgette View Post
    Are you saying that a test on a puppy will predict it's status later in life?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by bridgette View Post
    Concentrate on the basics, hearts.
    Once again, I don't make this stuff up. If you disagree with recommendations, pick a fight with those who make them and not the messenger. As for concentrating on hearts, very, very, very, very few USA breeders follow the MVD breeding protocol. So, they don't even bother to concentrate on the basics.

    Quote Originally Posted by bridgette View Post
    I really wonder sometimes what planet you live on ?
    God's favored planet, this earth which He created 6,000 years ago.
    Rod Russell

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
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    Wiltshire. U.K
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Cunningham View Post
    Poor puppy buyers...setting them an impossible goal so they get frustrated and give up....puppy farmers will love that.
    Exactly right Mary, and that is what they do. They take advice on health testing, search for months, get no where soon and opt for the easy solution buying a puppy at a third of the price from the worst places on earth.

    I look at testing as a valuable tool in breeding but years of experience are just as valuable. The combination of both are the best option.

    Nothing is a guarantee with a living animal and if you are searching for a dog thinking that ANY dog will be healthy for it's life time then you have set your hopes far too high. No amount of testing will ever guarantee you this and many conditions and health problems will take our dogs from us prematurely that tests are not even available for.

    Alison.

  5. #15

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    Your post is disingenuous Mr Russell, for as you are aware, the poster is looking in the UK where you will also be aware that to find that list of requirements would be like the proverbial needle in a haystack.

    With your viewpoint tell the poster not to buy a Cavalier or wait until you change the world.
    Its probably not wise to second guess what I do or dont do.
    We mortals will try to produce " good enough" dogs and leave the "perfect" ones to you.
    Last edited by Mary Cunningham; 09-05-2014 at 07:13 AM.

  6. #16

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    I don’t pretend to know the situation on the USA and I think it is rather unreasonable of Mr Russell to give advice to anyone not in the USA; i.e., someone who lives in a country out of his experience, based on what he perceives in the USA. His site would be a wonderful deterrent for the puppy farmer, but sadly they probably don’t read it.

    In over 30 years of breeding Cavaliers, albeit on a rather small scale, the ONLY dogs I have ever know to have diabetes were mongrels belonging to people I know! One, ironically, belonged to a work colleague who told me firmly that pedigree dogs were always unhealthy. This was when I’d taken a day off work to take Madam to be mated. His “healthy” mongrel developed diabetes at the age of four and he struggled to cope with it for a year but lost the battle. My stepdaughter also, sadly, had a mongrel dog, a terrier type, who developed it. I don’t remember how long he lived: five or six. The Cavalier I gave her in 1984 lived to 12 years 3 months with no health problems; but one she’d bought in 1982, who had a well known champion dad, died in 1988 with MVD. Her husband suggested getting a healthy mongrel. I have yet to know, personally of a Cavalier with diabetes and cannot recall ever having heard of one in the gossip.

    From what I’ve read, diabetes affects around 8% of the human population of the western world and is considered fairly common, but diabetes in dogs is reckoned (in Europe) to affect 0.2%; one in 500. It includes all dogs, mongrel and pedigree alike, but the Cavalier is NOT a breed listed as having a predisposition. Those that are include breeds as diverse as the Keeshond, Finnish Spitz, Alaskan Malamute, Miniature Schnauzer, Chow Chow, Beagle, Dobermann, Hungarian Puli, Golden Retriever, Poodle, Miniature Pinscher, Old English Sheepdog, Schipperke, West Highland White Terrier and Daschund.

    A European definition of a rare disease is where it affects 0.05% of less of a population; or one in 2,000.

    There are around 4.5 million pedigree dogs in just England and France, Cavaliers make up 3.6% of that total; about 165,640. This is from official records and taking an average lifespan of ten years. This does NOT include the far more numerous mongrels who equally can suffer from diabetes.

    OK, this is not a true reflection as clearly some breeds are more prone, but taking numbers and making projections, the 0.2% of the dog population that would suffer from diabetes would be 9,000 dogs and 3.6%, the percentage of Cavaliers, is 324 dogs. That takes it down into 0.2%, therefore into the realm of a rare disease.

    As for hips: I’ve never scored; the method and positioning of the dog to score in the UK is VERY different from that in the USA so it is totally unfair to make a comparison. One dog I bred has had a hip score of B/C under the scheme of the country where it was carried out; i.e. low and good!

    Hypothyroidism is relatively rare in miniature and toy breeds; more common in medium to large size dogs, and, again, I’ve not known or heard of a Cavalier that suffered from it. Interestingly, dogs and bitches acquire hypothyroidism at about the same rate, but spayed females are more prone to the disorder than unspayed females. As early spay is, apparently, done frequently in the USA it is highly possible that there is a higher incidence of the disease there.

    Problems we hear far less about these days include puppy head gland disease and autoimmune syndrome, and I think this is down to breeders having realised there were problems and excluding breeding stock that had produced them.

    Deafness: I assume we are talking about early deafness, not the type that, as with humans, develops with age, say 11 or 12 – although not all Cavaliers do suffer hearing loss with age. My two are quite deaf, but Rascally still hears if I clap my hands, and Raziela just looked up when a fighter plane screamed overhead: too late, of course, it was miles away before the sound hit us! I’m between two military airports and pilots practice low level flying over the forest…………. Hazel, who died at just age 12, wasn’t deaf, and a few that I’d bred died at ages 12 - 13 with no hearing loss. At one time I heard of quite a few cases of early deafness in Cavaliers, but that was a couple of decades ago and something that seems less common nowadays. I’d never myself owned or bred one that developed early deafness.

    My personal feeling is that one should concentrate on the bigger problem, hearts, and then eyes, ask about SM/CM, demand to see proof of tests and also ask about the families!

    Incidentally, along with most breeders, I have never made a profit but very healthy losses! During the time I was classed professional in France; obligatory if one breeds two or more litters per year; my losses were offset against Tom and my combined incomes and we paid a lot less tax!

    Jane

  7. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RodRussell View Post
    God's favored planet, this earth which He created 6,000 years ago.
    Oh dear. Just because you can add up generations and chuck in an extra couple of thousand, it doesn't necessarily mean literally ...
    Sheena Stevens

  8. #18

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    How did I miss that?? 6,000 years? What about the rest of time that this planet has existed?

    Honestly, if someone wants to believe that this is a planet favoured or created by a god, fine, but why present it as a fact?

    Jane

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Llandrindod Wells
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    Just proves he's on a different planet to the rest of us. I was tempted, but refrained from asking wether his planet was round or flat. Obviously a creationist and not an evolutionist.
    Bridgette Evans
    Svena CKCS

  10. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Janelise View Post
    How did I miss that?? 6,000 years? What about the rest of time that this planet has existed?

    Honestly, if someone wants to believe that this is a planet favoured or created by a god, fine, but why present it as a fact?

    Jane
    Because if you believe what the Bible says, you can count the generations listed in Genesis from Adam up to the birth of Christ, then you add on another 2000 years or so since the birth of Christ, and hey presto, you've got 6,000 years. So therefore it's a fact. (Don't shoot the messenger, guys.) However, if you lean towards even a slightly more scientific viewpoint it is somewhat difficult to believe. I expect that's where faith comes in?
    Sheena Stevens

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