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Thread: Latest dig at Kennel Club over Cavalier health

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janelise View Post
    I would be inclined to help a breeder who faced untrue charges.
    Many breeders I speak to regularly feel the same Jane... I hope it never has to be tested, but the support would be there.

    It has happened here that people have tried to sue a breeder, and in the dog press there is, from time to time, a column by the equivalent of a barrister explaining what can and can't be subject to a law suit. The law on the sale of dogs is pretty clear cut, so that unless there is an something in the terms of the obligatory contract of sale or the puppy has one of the named problems, the breeder has no legal obligation.
    What a sensible approach.... People have no 'crystal ball' showing the future of their newborn child, but some expect 'guarantees' that the family pet will have perfect health, and die with no symptoms at around 20 years of age. Anything else it seems is deemed to be unacceptable.


    This was an example here, and also shows that environment can play a big part: it wasn't a Cavalier but a bit bigger and more robust breed: new owners played with the pup too hard and it ruptured a cruciate ligament: they tried to sue the breeder. No legal advisor would take the case.
    Maybe the English legal system could learn from their French counterparts?

    Thanks for sharing this Jane.

    Kind regards,
    Veronica.

  2. #12
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    I have been saying for years this breed needs a "Fighting fund" not only for breeders but to protect the breed. What if years from now all this emphasis on health testing is proven to have been wrong, the breeds genetic diversity altered to such an extent by breeding decisions forced on us by the BVA/KC or researchers, that the breed is fundamentaly damaged, we should be able to seek recompense. I am sure this is why many of the health conditions are said to be polygenetic and the health test breeding protocols state the KC accept no responsibility for the outcome. It amounts to "we want you to do these tests, but when it all goes wrong, that's not our problem"
    Bridgette Evans
    Svena CKCS

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    Well, what happened to the money in the PR Fund that was established after PDE? That could be a start of a fighting fund, surely?

    And I'm sure the breeder concerned with Ms Mackaness will have health tests results available on My KC, and in any event will have provided paperwork on purchase. All any breeder can do is be guided by and adhere to the breeding and testing protocols - after all, as Veronica says, it's a two way street and they provide just as much protection for the breeder as the purchaser when it comes to a Court of law.
    Sheena Stevens

  4. #14

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    Unfortunately there are also big downsides to French laws of sale: when I did the course and exam to get my French breeder’s licence, one of the lecturers said that a dog or cat had no more rights than a washing machine. It is not legal to put any clause on the sale of a puppy, no “no breeding” clause or anything like that: a sale is a sale is a sale. If the new owner later has the dog confirmed to get its full pedigree and then breeds from it, they have every right and the breeder has none. It is also not legal to demand that if there are problems (e.g. ill health of new owner) the breeder had first refusal of the puppy/dog back. One can tell prospective buyers that one will, but even if in the clause of sale it isn’t a legal obligation and the new owner has the right to dispose with the dog as he wishes.

    There are proposed changes to the laws of sale of domestic carnivores (cats, dogs and ferrets) but nothing legal, yet.

    A firm offer of sale is when there is a description and a price: e.g “the blenheim puppy dog will be this price”, and under the law that must be honoured if accepted. If it was “the blenheim puppy dogs are from such and such a price”, that isn’t a firm offer so one can refuse to sell. One can’t legally say that a puppy is available to an “approved home”. There are ways round this; saying a rough price or, as my friend did, telling people she didn’t like that a puppy would be 20,000€. An avocat (=barrister) at a “reminder” course I attended advised breeders to beware of what they say, as a verbal “offer of sale” is legally binding if it can be proved. People, she said, nowadays record conversations, over the phone or face to face, often with a (hidden) mobile phone.

    Another daft aspect of the laws of breeding is the numbers of dogs: a licence for up to 9, over ten and then over 50. There is no discretion as to breed: ten Great Danes are a bit more evident than ten Chihuahuas. It includes all dogs over the age of four months, not just breeding stock, so I am a registered breeder with just two bitches of breeding age and five veterans, one of which is a different breed! I am well aware that there others who have a licence for 9 but have more “just don’t ever have them all together” they say. To have a licence for more I would need to be at least 100 metres from neighbours – and even here in rural France that isn’t so easy.

    Last week when Alain was here he noticed that on the side of the fridge I have an A4 sheet with the photos, ID numbers, names, registration numbers, breeds, colours and dates of birth of my nine dogs. He commented that I was legal, but was it wise to advertise the dogs I had? I said it was there in case anything happened to me so people would know how many dogs there were, which he agreed was sensible but advised me it would be better to have the notice on the side of the fridge away from the door, so it wasn’t immediately obvious. Food for thought. It is in fact Aline, his wife, who is the first contact should anything happens.

    Jane

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam Grump View Post
    Well, what happened to the money in the PR Fund that was established after PDE? That could be a start of a fighting fund, surely?
    Steve will probably answer this as he held the purse strings for that fund. All I will say is to my knowledge it was spent wisely.

    Veronica.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veronica Hull View Post
    Steve will probably answer this as he held the purse strings for that fund. All I will say is to my knowledge it was spent wisely.

    Veronica.
    Is that the reference on Facebook yesterday to $7,500 sent by "the England Cavalier Rescue" in respect of a further 57 dogs due to be auctioned? A reply to that post mentioned that it was handled by Sandra (Ireland).
    Sheena Stevens

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam Grump View Post
    Is that the reference on Facebook yesterday to $7,500 sent by "the England Cavalier Rescue" in respect of a further 57 dogs due to be auctioned? A reply to that post mentioned that it was handled by Sandra (Ireland).
    Your guess is as good as mine. As I previously said, Steve acted as the 'treasurer' for the PR Fund, so he alone will be in a position to answer any doubts or questions you may have regarding any money that wasn't used at the time.

    Veronica.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madam Grump View Post
    $7,500 sent by "the England Cavalier Rescue" in respect of a further 57 dogs due to be auctioned?
    And there was me more than willing to take on a puppy farm rescue bitch that came through Southern Rescue a few years back and I couldn't get a penny in funding for her from the club and now I read that a sum of $7,500 has possibly been donated towards paying for the same type of dogs that are going to auction?
    Sadly I couldn't take her because of this reason as my own five cost enough and all my bills are met by myself for my PF rescues.

    Think I need a long break to digest this one.

    Alison.

  9. #19
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    Veronica, wasn't this amount for a specific UK dog to be rescued and rehomed with the breeder's friends? Or were there additional UK funds that were donated to the general cause?

    Sue
    Sue

    Susan Shidler
    AKC Breeder of Merit
    SevenWoods Cavaliers
    Mettawa, IL USA

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    Sue, as per Sandra's post on FB, she asked the UK Cavalier Rescue Fund for help for the additional 57, and that's where the $7,500 went, to David's Fund. The 560 or thereabouts remaining from the PR Fund went to the 22nd November auction is my understanding.
    Sheena Stevens

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